Interview with Janice B 08 11 2025
[00:00:00] Alright, recording in progress and so let’s, uh, let us begin. Hello, and welcome to another episode of ERG Power Talk. I’m your host, Joe Santana. Today’s topic, how to reawaken the caucus spirit in your ERG to drive business. Impact couldn’t be timelier. As the business world becomes more complex and bottom line focus, ERG leaders are being asked to show real strategic value, but in the shift from a grassroots.
Activism policy or practice that came into existence back in the early 1970s to the Polish structure that we see today. Many ERGs seem to have lost that bold changemaking energy that made them powerful six decades ago. So what was the source of that power and how can we get it [00:01:00] back? To help us with this and more questions on this topic, we’ve got the perfect guest.
She’s someone who was there at the dawn of what we today call ERGs and BRGs. She’s a seasoned leader and coach with nearly two decades of experience. Transforming workplaces, especially in the healthcare space into more inclusive, high performing environments. Her work has helped ERGs evolve into engines of innovation, retention, and business growth through her company, the Workplace Transformations.
She’s helped leaders uncover blind spots, align teams, and make DEI efforts truly meaningful and effective. Janice, please introduce yourself. Hi, I am Janice Bra White. It’s great to be here this morning, uh, this afternoon. Um, I don’t know where you are, but I’m in the East Coast. Uh, so it’s, uh, afternoon. Um, but, uh, I’m just really excited to talk about this topic.
Um, [00:02:00] you know, a lot of times you think of things as ways to improve, but you know, you, you say, okay, who am I gonna present this to? So, this is a great opportunity. Fantastic. Well, Janice, thank you for joining us today on ERG Power Talk. I have been looking forward to this conversation since you and I connected, so, uh, I’m super excited to be here myself.
So Janice, as I mentioned in the opening here, you were there at the beginning. You were at Xerox, and you witness the work of the Black Caucus Group. What made that early group so effective at influencing real business decisions and company policies? I think it was that, um, they were very cohesive group of people.
Uh, we used to have to meet in the very beginning. Um, and this really came out of affirmative action being more directed at. Organizations, companies. Um, for a while there, you know, it wasn’t [00:03:00] specific, least talked about, but when, um, president Johnson came in, he made it very clear that this is gonna go through the Department of Labor as well.
So that gave people an opportunity to kind of look at what, what’s not working here? What, what are the things that are not working when it comes to promotions for recruitment? Um, you know, I I, I was just to say at, at, um, at Xerox that if you didn’t work for h if you didn’t go to Harvard, you weren’t gonna get in.
No, I didn’t go to Harvard. I was lucky I could sneak in the back door, I guess. But, um, but they were very, um, very much into, um, the brand names of, of universities as well. Um, so we used to meet, we used to have to meet offsite. Which is something that a lot of people don’t understand. But, um, we weren’t really sanctioned by the organization that, and, and I’m in Boston at this time, um, by the Boston office.
So we had to go out [00:04:00] and find meeting space, um, in, usually in the, one of the communities in Boston. And then we would meet and we would try to strategize. How are we gonna, how are we gonna, how are we gonna talk to them about these things and what kinds of things are we looking for? That’s the big thing.
What do you wanna get out of this? You know, you can’t just say that, you know, just go in there with some highfalutin, uh, way of talking. You gotta, you gotta tell ’em exactly what you expect. You know, there’s so much of that response you just gave me. I don’t know where to begin. It’s sort of like trying to get your arms around like an answer that’s so rich with so much information.
Like one of the things that you mentioned, which I think is really important, is that you guys were not sanctioned groups. I think a lot of times today when people get together to represent the community, they feel that it’s essential first to have the company come out and say, yes, we accept you as a group.
The fact is that you can meet with a group of people at the coffee house across the street, or anytime on your [00:05:00] own time. So you don’t really need sanctions in order to be able to, to have these, uh, these groups. The other thing is that you said that I think is really vital here, ’cause I think that that’s something that.
It isn’t done as often by modern day groups, and that is that you looked at the system from the standpoint of what needs to be fixed, what needs to be improved, as opposed to looking at the system and going, oh, what are we gonna celebrate now? There’s nothing wrong with celebrating. What’s gone. You know what’s gone, right?
In fact, that’s a wonderful thing to say. This has gone really well. We’re doing fantastic in this, that that is good fuel for passion and energy, but at some point you have to pause and say, okay, what’s not perfect yet? Right? What is it that we need to do? Better. What is it? And I think that that’s a missing piece, and I think that that’s a missing [00:06:00] piece just from inclusion, not only ERGs in general, where we seldom stop and ask ourself what is the cost of exclusion?
What is the cost of inequity to the organization as well as the people so that then when we talk about. The investment that needs to be made to make a change. That investment then is side by side with the cost that’s currently being paid now, uh, by not having that. So I think in your, in your response, I wanted to underline those things because I think that those are missing elements to today’s thinking that are really vital for these groups to be able to capture some of that magic.
I think, um. Then couple it with what they have today, which obviously is more acceptance. So over time these caucus groups turned into affinity groups and then, you know, they began to morph into what became later on ERGs and BRGs. I know a lot of people when they talk about ERGs and [00:07:00] BRGs, they start the story from the Affinity group, but actually the caucus groups preceded that.
These, these unsanctioned activist groups then came the affinity groups and so forth. How did that transformation happen? What, what were some of the elements of some of the things that you saw happening that ushered in this move from the caucus group to the Affinity group and then, you know, kind of led to where we are today?
I think it was more about, um, making it palatable to people, to leaders, especially. Um, to change the focus and look at more how do we work? I mean, not that there’s anything wrong with this, but how do we work together and how do we celebrate, like you said, you know, to various ethnic groups, women, so forth and so on.
Um, so I believe that’s, that’s how it, that’s how it started. Um, you know, I, when I first heard the words Affinity Group, [00:08:00] I was like, what is that? What is that really? Um, what does that mean? Oh, I guess we all have to get together. I don’t know. Um, but I think it was just to make it more palatable and, uh, for, you know, stakeholders, stockholders, whatever.
Well, we we’re doing something, we’re doing something here. We got affinity groups because you were saying something about how the business impact, and I, I was at the very beginning, at the last place I worked at, I was at the very beginning of them starting their ERGs. And I remember there was a, a, a committee that got together on trying to structure this, the program.
And one of the things that we wanted to do was, if this is gonna be about equality, we wanted to look at, you know, have a salary service, a salary scale, done, like, oh, you know, and look at people’s where they are and then say, okay, well how come all the women in this [00:09:00] position are getting this amount of money and the men are getting this amount of money?
So the CEO comes, came into one of our meetings and we started talking about it and he said, that’s not your job. And I was like, but isn’t this about equality, you know, across the board, within our organization. So, um, I think it was just we, we have ways of changing the name of things when we. Diversity was really the first piece of this.
You know, caucuses, diversity groups, then affinity groups, and now ERGs. Um, and as time has gone on through those different phases, the power of these groups have kind of diminished. And like I, like you said, I agree. It’s wonderful to celebrate people you know of, of various groups in various groups. But [00:10:00] to put your complete focus on that, I don’t know.
I’m not so sure that’s the right way to do it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you know, I mean, you know, as I look at it now, I say, you know, like in terms of the real progress, it doesn’t seem like a lot has changed in the last couple of decades. It’s been more about. You know, celebrating and so forth. And again, there’s nothing wrong with that.
There’s nothing wrong with making people, uh, aware of what’s good and making them enjoy that moment and in, and celebrating and complimenting people for their accomplishments. But progress isn’t made just by patting ourselves on the back. We also have to look at what needs to be done. So in moving away from their activist sort of policy shaping roots.
Um, you know, if you were to put in a couple of words what they lost, what do you, what do you think, you know, today’s [00:11:00] ERGs, uh, bgs may be missing and, and why does that matter? I think they lost the original focus, you know, going back to why were these groups started way back when? Um, you know, I don’t think any of us in the beginning talked about, you know, having celebrations.
We talked about the hard things like salary benefits. Um, you know, uh, the number of employees of color, um, all the kinds of things that we wanted to bring forth to them to let them know that, you know, these are things that need to be worked on, you know, and, um, I remember one of the first meetings we had with one of the leaders in the, in the office I was in, um, you know, it was, it was very hard to gauge how this was gonna go over.
Um, you know, was, was it gonna be taken as a. Slam or was it gonna be taken as well? This is an opportunity. Mm-hmm. Um, so, and some of it, it, they took as an opportunity. Some [00:12:00] of they, some of it they didn’t, you know, we could only make our recommendations and go forward. So the thing about ERG is that, that there’s such a waste of, of potential.
There’s so much potential in the ERG. Groups. Um, you know, I do a, I did a talk on intergenerational understanding in the workplace, and one of the things that I talked about was developing ERGs, you know, across, you know, age groups and have people talk about, you know, how they, they, the differences between them, but also the sameness between them.
They get, people get to know each other better. I think that’s one of the things that ERGs do is that they’re, they’re trying to get people to understand other people’s points of view in the ERGs. And, um, but I think that there’s another way to do this, and that is, you know, there’s lost [00:13:00] potential because we’re not doing everything we could do with these groups of people.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, um, I, I know a, uh, a researcher who I was recently talking to who said that some of the best ideas come from what she calls collisions or when these different groups get together. I think that’s what you were, uh, talking about as well. When they get together and they begin to see more, where they’re different, where they’re similar, and what ideas, new ideas and refreshing ideas.
Come, you know, from those discussions and in my own work, a couple of things that I’ve found is that a lot of times organizations, you know, they’re, they’re celebrating. Let’s say for example, you know, women in the organization, let’s say in the meantime, their turnover for women is higher than their turnover for men because of things that are happening in the organization or things that are lacking.
Like [00:14:00] for example, it’s not easy for somebody to. To basically go, you know, on the off ramp to maternity or come back after maternity. There may be other reasons the way that, um, the way that employee reimbursements are set up. You know, you, I could take a client out for a drink and you know, my martini bill is reimbursable, but someone has to pay, whether it’s a man or a woman, has to pay a couple of extra bucks for a babysitter on Saturday because that’s not.
Their daycare isn’t a available that day, that’s not reimbursable because, you know, the policy is still set in the mindset of the 1950s, you know, and of course there should be a stay at home wife who’s taking care of the kids and whatever, right? I mean, that mentality like that. And, and, and there are organizations, uh, that I know of that I’ve worked with that have actually asked.
ERG groups, let’s say the women’s ERG group, like they noticed that they’ve got like maybe [00:15:00] five or six points more. Of turnover than the men do. Well, you know, an organization of 10,000 to 20,000 people, that’s millions of dollars lost. Right? So they wanted to know like, how can we close that hole? And they talk to people and they collect information and they find out why women leave, why women stay, what they like, what they don’t like in.
It even affects certain men because men have more, uh, some, you know, some men have more childcare responsibilities than they did years ago, so they find out all these different things and sometimes they can invest like about 50. A hundred thousand dollars and they can close like a $20 million turnover hole.
That’s substantial. Right? But instead of doing that, you got, you know, the other organization that has the group, you know, decorating the building. ’cause it’s in March and it’s Women’s History Month and there’s a disconnect between. The reality that some people are facing the fact of that that’s [00:16:00] impacting the organization in a negative way as well as employees.
So, I mean, I’ve seen the other side of that. And I’d love to hear, I mean, in your own experience, can you share any example of, let’s say a modern ERG or BRG group that you’ve seen that has been able to. Blend that bold change driving spirit of the caucus with the structure and support, uh, of a company sponsored ERG.
’cause I think that it’s not that we’re saying we don’t want to go back, we wanna go forward, but I think that forward. Probably would do better by taking some of those elements that were there in the past and, and putting them back in because that’s what creates business impact. So just wondering, like in your experience, have you seen that done where somebody does that balancing act between being the corporate sponsored group, but also still having that voice that says, this is great, but that could be better and, and, and then gets that information [00:17:00] to the right people?
I wish I could say yes, I have seen that recently not, but I can’t, um, I, I, I just feel like you kind of like put in a, in a, in a, in a ba you know, in a barrel and you’re supposed to be doing only these things. And again, I that, I’ll go back to that thing about wanting to do pay equity, you know, and look at pay equity as part of our charter.
And being told that we couldn’t do that, that wasn’t our place. So what is our place? It’s never really clear, like, um, the ones that I’ve been in has been a, basically what you are talking about. Um, and it, and a lot of this came out of, well, our, the ones I was in came out of the George Floyd situation. So there was a lot of trying to get to understand, you know, why people react the way they do.
And you know, what happened with George Floyd? And so the push was on. [00:18:00] Eventually it has to expand to more than just that because that whole thing touches a lot of different, different areas and nobody’s really looking at those or allowing people to look at them. Now I’m generalizing. I’m sure there may be some ERGs out there that are both.
I’m working on the, the organizational issues as well as the, the, uh, cultural issues. But, um, I don’t think there are many of them. I think they’re very much stuck. They’re put in a box and that’s where they, where they stay and what a loss of potential. What a loss of potential. That’s what that, that’s what really bothers me.
I mean, I, and you know, I work a lot with people around organizational culture change, and, you know, trying to embed a different way of doing things into an organization is sometimes a challenge, but I do believe that. You are losing out. If you’re not utilizing your ERGs [00:19:00] to the fullest extent, then you’re losing potential.
Yeah. For change. Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I think that that’s one of the challenges faced by, uh, inclusion leaders and organizations today and, and, and these ERG groups because now, you know, instead of being, instead of getting support. From, let’s say, HR and other groups based on let’s make the company look good.
And compliance, uh, because of the push, especially in the United States, going in an opposite direction. The, uh, everyone’s saying, well, you know, what are these groups for then? If, if, if, if we’re not gonna use them this way, or if using them this way is no longer an effective way to use them, then where’s the value?
And my argument is. The value is that they can help improve the company so that the company is more effective in being able to leverage a modern day [00:20:00] workforce, which is very different from the workforce of the Leave it the Beaver days, right? I mean, it’s that we’re not living in that time anymore. And yet, you know, there’s a lot of opportunity to change policies and structures in organizations that that house that.
Roosevelt Thomas talked about building in the 1999 book, building a House for Diversity. Well, construction stopped on it a long time ago, and and we’ve been, and we’ve been sort of, you know, celebrating that we put a foundation in, but we haven’t finished rebuilding the walls and there’s a lot of opportunity for organizations to improve and for there to be, uh, you know, positive business impact.
So. What would you say, looking at this now, now, spanning what you saw, spanning what you’re seeing today, what were you, what would you say to today’s ERG and BRG leaders and their executive sponsors who want their groups to go from being, you know, nice to have support networks to being business driving [00:21:00] assets, uh, that also serve their communities as well as their organizations in a measurable way.
Well build a structure that that does that, and I’m, I’m a big advocate of ideation challenges, and I see those as being something that ERGs could really get involved in where you’re taking an organizational problem and you are working together to try to solve it. And then having what, whoever, whatever, and you presented to the, your findings and then.
People get recognized because, you know, wow, that was the best. And then they, you get ideas. You know, I think, I think a lot of times leaders think that they’ve got all the answers and they don’t, you know, there’s, you’re not utilizing all the brain power of your, of your staff if you’re not doing these kinds of things.
And um, you know, and getting back to what you were saying about the change over, you know, especially in the nonprofit world, which is [00:22:00] where I last worked. Um, some organizations have federal funding and they’ve had to make a switch now to find private funding to support their ERGs, or, or they’d have to disband them, either one, one or the other.
Um, and so I, I really think there’s, it’s, I don’t understand exactly what the fear is by organizations to utilize their staff in a positive way. Um. I, I don’t, I don’t get it. I did lean training for, I don’t know, a couple years at the organization that I was at, and I’ve seen the power of empowerment in teams, people taking a problem in their organization, taking it through the lean process, and coming out with a, a solution for that problem.
It was amazing. I mean, just amazing, you know, the, the [00:23:00] ideas, the, the, the energy. ’cause people like to, you know, it’s like, see, make sure that they’re actually, you know, con contributing to the organization. We like to contribute more than just our daily work. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it’s, it’s really fascinating.
I mean, how, as we talk about this now. This happened, you know, so gradually that no one ever noticed that these groups were becoming more, you know, used more for things that were celebratory and less for things that were improving of the organization. And yet there’s so much, so much potential as you’re highlighting, uh, to use them for that and to leverage them for that.
So you and I have talked about the importance of. You know, showing hard results, returns, uh, that justify company investment these days. [00:24:00] And, you know, given the, you know, the pressure on budgets and accountability, I mean, you know, I think that’s another thing that sometimes is lost in, in, in, in the organizations, uh, and by ERG groups and others.
And that is that in organizations, everybody’s competing for dollars. Right. Everybody’s competing for budget. So sales competes with marketing. Marketing competes with operations, and they all compete with research and development and so forth. And then after you have those things taken care of, which usually are the big focus of the business, then there’s a certain percentage of money that then is allocated to these.
Sort of service type things like HR and other parts of the organization that are not considered to be revenue generating, but are considered to be important to the existence of the company. And then somewhere down there, down that food chain, especially these days, are these ERGs because they’re literally [00:25:00] getting a little piece of, a little piece of the HR budget in many cases.
Right? They’re not getting a budget based on. On a process that they presented that says, Hey, you know what, with $50,000, we can reduce the cost of turnover by 10 million or something like that, right? So they’re not really in, in, in that. But given, you know, today’s pressures and so forth, uh. How can they, you know, how can they fare better in those discussions where they can maybe get some of the investments they need and convince others to make investments in areas that’ll improve the company for the organization’s sake, making it more profitable for the sake of communities that are in the organization, making it a better place for their careers and so forth.
Well, what I’ve found is, um, you have to get the leader on board. Change does not happen from the bottom up. It [00:26:00] happens from the top down. Um, and it’s, I should say, driven by the top down. And I, I, that’s why whenever I work with an organization, that’s the first person I go to, to gauge whether they’re really serious about this, you know, or they’re just saying they wanna do the way, they really don’t wanna change their culture.
They really like the way it is. So I think that. Leaders have got to understand that we need to, you know, like managers, supervisors, and so forth, need to find a way to make sure that the leader is, understands the importance of doing this. And not just because you can put it on our website or, you know, we can say it at a conference.
Um, but on a day-to-day basis, how can we use the groups and still keep. Celebratory piece of it. I’m not saying, and I’ve said that in my speech, I’m not saying get rid of that. [00:27:00] I’m saying add onto it. It is not an either or. Um, and that allows them to really begin to understand leaders, understand that the value, because they do wanna know what’s the ROI if I, if I’m gonna let you do this, what am I gonna get out of it?
If, you know, you’re struggling with recruitment and to retention, you know, I mean, I always say word of mouth is a big deal when, when you’re recruiting and retaining, and if people in your organization are going, and, you know, Sally Smith comes up and says to somebody, Hey, I hear you work for X. And the person says, yeah, I do.
And they said, what’s, what’s, you know, I was thinking about maybe get, trying to get a job there. And the person says, no, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t if I were you. You know, and they say, why? Well, you know, there’s lots of things that need to be fixed, fixed. So, you know, you get into that whole spiral. So, you know, uh, uh, that’s, you [00:28:00] know, I, I know that jobs that I’ve gotten, some of it actually got to Xerox through word of mouth.
Um, that it, it does, it does matter. You know, what that person says does matter. Yeah. Yeah. And it matters more now to, I mean, today than ever before. Um, people today are very skeptical and I, I, I, I mention this to people all the time, you know that a lot of times organizations put, you know, beautiful verbiage and the stock photos and everything on their websites, sites, the average person, millennial, gen X, and so forth.
And I, I think for sure, uh. Not only Gen Z, but Gen Alpha when they come into play. They’re not moved by any of that stuff. I mean, I have a couple of a, a couple of members in my family that belong to those groups and they, they just think that’s all a bunch of smoke, right? You know where they go? They go to LinkedIn, they look to see if they know somebody in the company.
They go to Glass [00:29:00] Door, they go to all these, it’s almost like a restaurant, like when you go to a restaurant, you are not. Pulled into that new restaurant because the owner says, the food is great, and this place is wonderful. You go over the open table of one of these places and you look it up and then you see what the other patrons say about it.
Right. And that’s what motivates you. So I mean, I think that’s, you’ve just kind of pinpointed another area where a lot of these, um. A lot of these members of these groups could be even more impactful and could be more effective, uh, effectively leveraged in their organizations, which is that they could be instead of just, you know, instead of just saying, well, they, you know, we’ve got 10 people or 20 people that belong to this group or that group, and we’ve got 14 ERGs.
What about if those people. We’re in an environment that was so positive that they became your ambassadors, that when Janice comes over and says to me, Hey, I’m thinking of getting a job at x, Y, Z, that I as an employee of the [00:30:00] company who let’s say is, is closer to you, demographically would say like, oh, this place is great.
Right? I mean, that would the value of that in terms of shrinking the amount of time that would take you to get somebody in and being able to attract a. Uh, uh, people from a diverse workforce pool that is almost immeasurable. I mean, but that’s certainly one area. So, so Janice, looking ahead, go ahead. You were gonna say something.
Go ahead. Complete your thought of that. So somebody in my family is looking for job and they just graduated from college. And, um, he got a, somebody reached out to him from a, a headhunter and said, uh, hey, you know, this job’s open. So he went to interview for it and in the process of that, he found out that somebody that he went to high school with mm-hmm.
Actually now works for that company. So he called the company, he called him and said, Hey, you know, what’s the, what’s what, you know, what do you think about this place? Um, and then, [00:31:00] then the person said, oh, I really like it. It’s really collaborative, you know, congenial, um, you know, and people get along.
That’s what sold him. It wasn’t the money, it was the fact, and he said it when I talked to him, he said, yeah, you know that I like that the younger people, and they’re energetic and they’re, you know, working together. That’s, that’s what you wanna hear. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s the power that these groups have now that I think is seldom tapped as effectively, uh, as it could be.
So Janice, looking ahead. What do you think the next evolution of these groups is gonna be? So we have that forgotten piece, which is the caucus. Then we have the Affinity group, then we have the ERG, then we have the BRG. You know, I’ve heard talk of strategic resource groups and other things like that.
What’s your take? Where do you think these groups can go next? I don’t think they need to change their names [00:32:00] in order to do this. I think that within the ERGs. What do they call it? Employee resource groups. Resources are, you know, many things like within the organization, so I don’t think they need to add another name.
I think they just have to take a look at these groups and say, we’re bringing all these people together. Why don’t we try to run something organizational or or operational by them to see where they come, where they come out. Um, and or, you know, they’re maybe their recruiting is, is is difficult. They’re having difficult recruiting.
You know, throw that out. Say, Hey, what could we do better? What can tell us some things that you think would attract people to this company or this organization? So utilizing, and when I brought this topic up at the conference, I said, you know, doesn’t mean you’re taking something away. Sometimes we think you gotta take something away to put something in.
That is not [00:33:00] the case. Can these, these groups can still do their celebrations, but they can also provide unbelievable value to the organization because you’re getting different perspectives from different age groups and, um, especially when it comes to customer, you know, the customer, it’s almost like a little mini focus group.
You know, the ERGs, I mean, you could actually use them for that as well, but I think there’s gonna be, I think that, I believe that when, based on everything that’s happening in the world today, that the ERGs are going to be repurposed. Yeah. And they’re gonna, you know, it’s now, you know, eight 80, 80%, or maybe 90% celebration and you know.
10% other stuff. Very little but gonna change the balance a little bit on that. Yeah. [00:34:00] So it’s more about operational, strategic, um, vision of, you know, for the organization. And I think if, I believe if they allow people to do that, they’re gonna find people wanna stay. ’cause I’ll be energized, you know, anytime I think people can be creative, that’s the best thing.
That’s what keeps them going. That’s what’s kept me going all these years. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, I think that’s absolutely vital, um, to engage people that way. And I think that they would welcome it and, and, and they would drive a tremendous amount of value. You know, a little follow up question I have on this, ’cause we haven’t talked about this group yet, is exec executive sponsors, I mean, what’s their role in all this?
’cause literally they can be. They can be the ones that steer in the, in, in the right direction or steer these groups, uh, instead of steering ’em toward the celebratory stuff, [00:35:00] uh, and, and focusing only on that, or instead of just kind of passively, you know, attending the meeting and putting their, you know, their thumbprint on it.
As you know, I approve this message actually providing some kind of business. Context and pulling them into things, uh, or, or helping them get the kind of information they need so they can have a greater impact. What are your thoughts about that? Because I think in some cases, as executive sponsors that have either subsumed the group and they take it over, it’s almost like they’re the shadow chair and the person who’s there, they just kind of running them.
To do different things for them as if they were a, uh, chief of staff, uh, role. And on the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got some executive sponsors. That to me, I mean, many years ago when I wrote one of my books, I said that some of them were figureheads, right? Uh, there’s a happy medium in there, isn’t there?
I mean, in your mind, what role can they play in this [00:36:00] new world? They can be the conduit for bringing things forward as related to changing some of the focus of these groups. Um, you know, maybe, maybe I’ll, I’ll back up a little and I was saying, you know, gotta get the CEO, maybe in these case you have to get the executive sponsors first, and then they can be the conduit to talk to the CEO or the, the leader.
Um, but a lot of, you’re absolutely right, some of them are just hands off, you know, unless something kind of not really in their realm comes up the, the rgs, then they’ll say, well, you gotta run that by me. Uh, we need to run that by the sponsor. Um, but that’s about it. I, I, I haven’t seen any real powerful sponsors, you know, in my lifetime.
I mean, as far as recently. That are really in, invested in this. Mm-hmm. You know, they’re kind of like, [00:37:00] oh, it’s another job. Yeah, yeah. How another job. But I do think that that might be the way to, to, now that you, we’ve talked about it, to thoroughly think about speaking to the executive responses first, getting them interchange the way they think.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean because they are people who generally have a business background, so they should be able to understand what some of the challenges and opportunities are in the organization, especially. Since they also sit in the group, uh, how this particular group and its demographic can help to address some of those, some of those issues.
So, I mean, I think that that’s, that’s a critical role that needs to be defined in a, in a better way than just being, you know, the gatekeeper for if they do anything beyond celebrating a history. Mother, wait a minute. First you gotta check with me. It sounds more like a. Sounds more like a stop sign than an enabler’s, right?
So [00:38:00] what? What, you know, I think that that role needs to also evolve somewhat. So, Janice, where can our listeners get more information? You know, from you? You talk about some speeches that you’ve done, maybe you’ve done some writing or other things out there. Where can they go out and get this stuff? And of course, how can they reach you personally?
Well, I’m on LinkedIn onto Janice Bra. I have a newsletter, um, that is called The Culture Catalyst, and it’s about, you know, we, we take on different topics every month. Um, I’ve been doing this, publicizing this now for about, I don’t know, 24 issues I think I have out there somewhere. Um, and I, you know, I think you might get, you know, like I say, the different topics.
The last one was actually on ERGs and my story about how I got involved with ERGs. And that it really was about the people. You know, that was one of the final lines in my newsletter. Um, I also have a website, [00:39:00] um, WP Transformation, no s on the n.com. And you can reach me at my, um, email janice@wptransformation.com.
Excellent. Well, Janice, thank you again for joining us today on ERG Power Talk. It’s been a pleasure. We’ve had, I think, a pretty real talk type conversation that I really enjoyed and that I’m sure my listeners will enjoy as well. So thank you for that. Thank you. Great. So, you know, I mean, of all the things that we talked about.
Uh, Catherine, if you wanna unmute yourself, that’s fine. If you don’t want to unmute yourself, you can, you can, you can chat with me. I’ll open up the chat window in case something comes up and you want me to be your voice. I don’t know if you’re somewhere where you can, where you can actually talk. So let me just open that up.
Uh. Janice, you know, if you [00:40:00] were to convey one lesson from the experience you’ve had, that would be really useful for ERG leaders right now who are not new, but they’ve been doing this for a while now they’re looking at the world around them. Shift the, you know, that I would say to me that ERG leaders are in the same place as.
People who create contact lenses and glasses would be, if there were suddenly the discovery of a pill they gave gave everybody 2020 vision. Right? Yeah. If you’re in the business of producing glasses and contact lenses and they make a big announcement, we have a pill. Take the pill, boom. You have 2020 vision, their whole business model gets blown.
Uh, it’s gone. Right? And I think that. To a great degree for the last couple of decades, the model has been you do all these wonderful things and you have these events and we post them on the on, on our website and they [00:41:00] signal to the world that we’re an employer, a good employer brand and whatever, and now they’re like, wow, you know, we don’t wanna put that out there because it might draw fire and it might hurt our government contracts.
Um. You know, and, and, and there were these other concerns that organizations have today. Um, you know, like my analogy of the people who make the glasses and make the contact lenses, you now have to sit there and say, well, okay, I’ve got a, I’ve got a warehouse full of plastic, uh, permeable plastic to make lenses.
I’ve got a bunch of other, you know. Lenses and what can I do with this? Uh, you know, I gotta find a new market because the old market is gone. And I think that ERGs kind of find themselves in that place today. Uh, I, I don’t think that what was valued about them in the past. Is value this highly today as it was back then.
Uh, but yet they do have value [00:42:00] internally. There is some value still to that because organizations don’t want their employees to feel that they’ve totally abandoned. DEI completely, and you know, bolt for the door. So internally there’s that. But they have lost some of the momentum because the underlying structure has changed.
What would be your advice to them? What’s something that they could do, a skill and activity, a tool or something that you think would immediately, you know, put them on that new platform of value? Um, one of the things I developed for the speech that I made, uh, a tool and it’s around intergenerational understanding, and I thought, well, this would be a great way to start the conversation.
You know, everybody, you know, takes this little tiny survey and then we talk about different, this, the sameness and the differences, but I think that what they’ve gotta do is they’ve gotta really start thinking about [00:43:00] how powerful they are. I don’t think they see themselves as powerful. I think they see themselves as just like you say, a conduit for the organization to look better in the face of the world, so to speak.
Um, but I don’t think they really, they really exist. So really, you know. I think, you know, you, you brought up the, the point about the, the, the sponsor, you know, if you’re gonna try to change the direction or, or add on the direction to this, you’ve gotta get your sponsor on board first, and then we’ll talk probably about the CEO afterwards, whether you get the second sponsor and they say, you know, listen, why don’t we, why don’t we give this a try?
You know, you know, we’ve been struggling with this thing for a while, or whatever it is, and let’s see what they can do with it. How they can, you know, what comes out of that. So any, you know, and, and again, they don’t, the energies aren’t thinking like this. They’re, you know, [00:44:00] they’re thinking just about the regular stuff that you are talking about.
So somebody’s gotta be able to come to them and say, Hey, you could do a lot more here. You know, which would benefit many different facets that you’re talking about in the other piece of your ERG. Whether that’s, you know, recruitment, pay, whatever it might be. Um, so I think that’s it. I mean, I think they have to sit down and have a good meeting with themselves and say, who do we wanna be?
And still stay within the boundaries of what we have to, you know, what the world is telling us we can, again, I do. Um, but, you know, really, you know, shake it up, you know, and, and see what happens. Yeah, I like that. I like that comment. Shake it up and see what happens. ’cause I think that staying still is not an option, is it?
I mean, staying still is kind of like, um, I think it’s a downward spiral, uh, to [00:45:00] some degree for, for, for some of these groups. Um, in my speech, there were words I couldn’t use. I was speaking to a group of people that are under a federal grant, so. I couldn’t say the word diversity. I couldn’t say the word inclusion.
I mean, they, they baby, they gave me a list and I was like, I had really done my presentation already, so I had to go back and kind of find another way to do it. But, but you know, when you think about it, you know that that’s where we are. You know, we gotta live, we live with what we’ve got. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, I think that still though. You know, there’s something you said earlier that I think is really important, which is that when I asked you about, you know, what’s the next iteration of these groups, you know, there was the caucus groups. The affinity groups. The ERGs. The ERGs, and then you know, all these other names that [00:46:00] people have come up with.
And one of the things that you said that I think I circled over here was you said, you know, they don’t need another name. They just need to change what they do. And I think the same thing is true here. It’s not a matter of it’s, you know, whatever words you want to use, it’s actually the value that you bring.
If you can cut things like. Turnover costs that are massive in some companies because you have demographics that are leaving faster than others. If you can do that, then you are bringing a tremendous amount of value, uh, to that organization. If you can identify, uh, the particular ingredients, flavor, or packaging of a particular product that your company sells, and as a result of that.
It grows like another 19% market. That’s phenomenal. You know, that is phenomenal. You could still be called an ERG or A BRG or whatever. That [00:47:00] is phenomenal. Uh, and, and you are driving va and, and I know a lot of times people will look at that and they’ll say, oh, but now you’re just doing extra work for the company, you know, to, to help the company and so forth.
But the reality is. Janice and I, I think you’ll agree with this, is that when these groups do things that benefit the company, that also opens up more opportunity for their community when they do stuff, which is kind of like window dressing stuff, uh, to celebrate and whatever. That doesn’t change anything for the community.
And quite frankly, a lot of the people at the top of the organization, they kinda look at that and just like, okay, it’s. It’s all right. But that, that doesn’t really wow them in any way or make them feel like, oh, we should really invest in this. Right. No, um, yeah, I, I, you’re absolutely right. I think that, that they’ve gotta really [00:48:00] dig into like, things like employee engagement, which always comes up as an issue.
Yeah. And the survey, the assessments that I do. So what’s making our employees, we are employees. So what would make us disengaged? Why are we disengaged and what can we do about that? And come up with ideas, you know, um, you know, I always say like, onboarding, onboarding is so important and it’s one of the things that gets, you know, pushed to the side most of the time or done very poorly.
What does a real good onboarding program? What look like, what, what do, what do we need to do? What would I have liked if I, when I came in and I didn’t get, or I didn’t hear, or I didn’t see or I didn’t interact with, uh, there’s so many areas that are of, of, and communication is the other one. You know, how do we communicate better as an organization?
Yeah, yeah. You know, so many areas. Yeah. You know, and one of the things, going back to employee engagement. [00:49:00] It’s very easy. So my, my, my educational background is in finance, right? So it’s very easy actually to take that topic and to express it in financial terms because. And in fact, it’s very easy to determine whether your organization can use engagement improvement without ever seeing a single satisfaction engagement survey Like those are nice, but to me, you know where the real story is.
If you are an insurance company, let’s say for example, and you have 10,000 employees, you belong to the insurance industry and you have 10,000 employees, and your company is producing $11 billion a year. And you look across the insurance industry and you look at your closest competitors and other people that are out there.
If you take that 10 billion and you divide it by the total number of employees, it gives you a rough number called revenue per employee yield, right? [00:50:00] You take that number and then you look at your competitors, and let’s say for example, let’s make it easy, you got another company with 10,000 people and they’re producing 20 billion a year, and they’re in the same market and they’re selling to the same people you are.
Nothing’s wrong group is, yeah, something’s wrong. Your group, I don’t care if your satisfaction survey says that according to whatever you’re beloved by all your employees, they’re, they’re not giving you the same output that this group is giving you. And to me, what, what I found when I work with people is when you start digging below those numbers, you start seeing that.
There are certain pockets of the organization that feel disenfranchised, and as a result, they’re not gonna put out as much. We’re human beings. We respond to certain things in our environment, or maybe they’re not as well supported as the aforementioned example where my martini is reimbursed, but [00:51:00] somebody else’s childcare expenses aren’t so they can’t perform as well as as the other.
And usually in organizations where people are. Performing at that higher level of revenue yield per employee. They’ve got a much smoother machine and the way that they engage people, uh, the way they support people, there’s a lot of little pieces that make it possible. It’s not that those people are more brilliant, more energetic or whatever, they’re just in a different ecosystem that really gets more out of them.
And, and to me, when it’s very easy to go out there and say, okay, what kind of business am I in? How are we doing in this area? Now you know that there’s smoke somewhere in there. Now you can begin to hunt for it. So it’s just a matter of looking at things through a new lens. Right? And then you begin to see those opportunities, uh, especially in healthcare.
Yeah. Talk a little bit about that as before we wrap up, talk about healthcare. Um. [00:52:00] Healthcare has been struggling now for years, trying to re recruit and retain staff, and especially the, the medical doctors. Um, and, and I was in community health, so it was even even more difficult because the doctors didn’t get paid as much as they work the hospital.
But, um, I think that. I actually, this group that I spoke to, I, I was, I was wondering, you know, I looked around the room and, you know, like everybody kind of looked down, you know, like, and I have to talk to somebody who had been there the year before and he said, oh, you know, um, he said, you know what I noticed about them?
They seem really like, you know, down, you know, like not doing well as far as ’em emotionally. I said, yeah, they’re not, because they, they’re not being kept in the loop. They’re not being communicated to. They’re not so opening up that to people to [00:53:00] make that process better. ’cause you can’t come up with every idea.
I can’t come up with every new idea, so let’s put like a bunch of people together and come up with a better way to do this. Absolutely. And healthcare is healthcare’s a mess. I mean, it’s a, it’s a real mess. We could have a whole two hour session on this. Um, but the things that, the, the, what I’m seeing there, and I, you know, and they’ve gotta, they’ve gotta figure it out because it’s not gonna get any easier for them.
Absolutely. Absolutely. So on that note, we’re gonna end. What I’m gonna do now is, uh, I’m gonna stop the recording. And Janice, again, thank you for sticking with me, uh, for this other segment. Um, I.